It’s November so that means a lot of y’all are trying to write an absolutely bananas number of words over the next few weeks. Remember to drink water, take naps, and go outside. It recharges the think meats with the proper humors for creative work.
I’m starting an open thread for November. Ask me craft questions, process stuff, or even just for a pep talk!
Writing books is hard! But remember none of this is wasted time or wasted work. You’ve written eight books! EIGHT BOOKS! That is fucking WILD. So few people in the world can muster up the focus, dedication, and vision to write a single book. Remember there are a lot of reasons to write and getting published is only one of them. Find ways to treasure the joy in the books you have written and will write and use that to keep you going.
Keep writing. Keep querying. You’re doing the right things to get where you want to go. Just remember that the path itself, as hard as it can be, is also the point.
Do you have Twitter (or Instagram, but Twitter is my main hangout)? I'm writing my sixth book and querying for the fourth time in 5.5 years right now. So... I feel you. Find me somewhere @RochelleDeans??
How do you know when your shit is good? I think I’ve got some good work, but it usually gets torn apart by editors and beta readers. How do you know the difference between a a compelling story and getting high on your own farts?
I talk a lot about how the keys to surviving this business are all rooted in contradictions. This is one of the biggest ones. You, the writer, need to be humble. You need to doubt your work. You need to know that it can be better. Because that’s what lets you hear criticism, that’s what makes you push for it to be better, work harder, grow with each book.
But, it is also true, that if you don’t believe in yourself first, no one will. No one can tell you your book is good. No external validation will prove to you that you wrote something good enough. I can’t do anything for you if you don’t first know, in your deepest heart, that you deserve this.
Believe in you. Be your best advocate. Stay humble. Do the work. But above all, keep the faith.
Any advice on how to read for critique quickly? I've swapped NaNo outlines with CPs and would like to return them quickly, but it always takes me hours just to read and critique a small section - 10 pages in an hour is a really good session; sometimes it's half that if I have a bunch to say on a page. That's a lot of hours for a full MS! I'm not even reading for grammar/line edits; it just seems to be the speed my brain goes at when critically processing what it's reading. I'd love any tips to improve my speed or work more efficiently. I figure as an agent you must have a good system in place! :) Thanks for taking questions!
OMG, this is so validating. I once alpha read a 200,000+ word epic fantasy novel for a friend, and it took me 6 months. I even liked it a lot, but it felt like it should be a trilogy.
Put the book in a desk drawer for at least a week, preferably two. Don’t think about it. Don’t look at it. Don’t talk about it.
Go for hikes. Watch movies. Play some games. Read something else. Cook some food. See your friends.
Then, come back, sit down and read the whole thing through without taking notes. Then stop and write down your impressions. You’ll find, ideally, that new solutions have presented themselves to problems you never even saw.
Give your brain time to rest and recharge. Give your subconscious time to chew through the problems you’ve presented it. Give it fuel to keep going. Rest, then edit.
How do you know when to give up on revising something?
I finished my first novel draft this summer, and as I've revised and gotten feedback I've realized that I wrote it from a really anxious/self-doubting place. I was trying to be clever and follow the rules more than I was trying to write something that works.
Is it worth it to keep working on it throughout NaNo, as a way to hone my revising skills? Or is it cool to shelve it for now and draft something new, now that I know I can actually write+finish a full work?
Take a break when you're not excited to work on something. Outline a new project. Go for a walk. Take a breather. If you're feeling that frustrated, I'm not an advocate for just pushing through. Sometimes it's what's needed and called for, usually by a deadline, but I think your best work is rooted in your enthusiasm. Yes, writing is hard. Yes, it often seems to make people feel bad.
Okay, running analogy. There's two types of pain in running. One is "oh god everything hurts, my feet are aching, my legs are on fire, I can't breathe." This is good pain. This is normal pain. This is to be borne, to be pushed through, to come out the other side with renewed vigor or the blessed relief of sitting down at the end of a long run. The other is "my knees are full of knives, my leg won't extend properly, my hips are grinding." This is stop pain. This is I'm injured pain. This is rest pain.
Learning the difference between the two is the key to success. You need to sit down and really think is your frustration a lack of excitement about the book, a lack of vision for what you want it to be? Or are you just tired right now and keeping going is hard because you're discouraged or depressed?
Hi! This thread is great, love reading your answers to other people's questions. Thank you for your hard work! I have one great doubt (right now): what's an appropiate scene lenght? Does it depend on the author? the style? the type of event you're describing? the mood you want to convey? According to google results my scenes are too short (usually around 500 to 1000 words, when apparently the norm is 1000-2000). I'm rewritting my first finished manuscript so now it's driving me crazy! Is it intrinsically wrong that they are short or does it really depends on [variety of motives]? Main thing that keeps me up is that I read that "character driven" stories need longer scenes and mine is a character driven story so.... oh no!? Lol! Thank you for your input on the matter!
I don’t think there’s any answer to this that can be standardized! Think about when things get boring. Think about rhythm. Both in the scene and in the MS as a whole. Is your story quick tempo, a driving beat? is it slow and languorous, building tension by layering on detail after detail? does it change up from PoV to PoV, from plot to plot? Trust your instincts is what I’m going to say. Ignore what google says. Ignore what any book says. Do what feels right.
"Do what feels right" sounds like the ideal advice. Perhaps my biggest mistake was googling things in the first place. While writing the first ms I never doubted myself in terms of scene lenght, and as I finished it I had a very clear vision of the pace/rythm I wanted for the Finished Version, and knew how scenes had to look like to accomplish that. Looking up what other people do kinda screwed that confidence. But hopefully only momentarily. I'll try to get back on my "doing what feels right" mood. Thank you!
Thanks so much for doing this! Do you have any recommendations of books written in first person with super strong voice? My NaNo novel is the first 1st person book I've written in awhile, and I'd like to read some great examples. I've read ones like Permanent Record by Mary HK Choi and Eleanor Oliphant is Completely Fine by Gail Honeyman and would love to be able to write with a strong voice like those.
Sorry but gonna plug one of my own: Magic for Liars by Sarah Gailey is extremely voice-y and first person. Lolita is another example that springs to mind at a very different end of the spectrum.
I think first person really sings with a very strong voice. Although, as you can tell from these examples, I'm a total sucker for an unreliable narrator!
Thanks for this thread. How do I know if a scene has enough tension, and if that tension is compelling enough to get readers turning pages? What kind of tension keeps even "slow" scenes between major action scenes and plot developments interesting?
Remember that books are about evolution. So ask yourself, is your character the same person at the beginning of the scene versus the end of the scene? Are they developing? Growing? Changing? Learning? If not, how do we, as readers feel about that.
The other thing to think about is always being clear about who “wins” a scene. This video essay from Tony Zhou’s Every Frame a Painting is something I think about all the time while editing. (https://vimeo.com/108963321) While he’s specifically talking about filmic language so much of the principle carries over into books as well.
All scenes are about development and progress whether or not someone is in a fight. Remember that fights are about emotions and interstitial moments are about forward movement.
I think of short stories vs novels as a layer cake, where each layer is a plot thread. So a short story is a single layer cheesecake, dense, rich, nuanced. A novella is like a tall rainbow birthday cake. You got an A plot, a B plot, and a C plot. A novel is a god damn mille feuille. Layer on layer on layer, each reinforcing each other until it builds to a complex, structural whole.
A novel isn’t just a short story but longer. It’s many many short stories stacked and woven together around a single, central motivating question.
The Lighthouse was incredible and one of the most distinctive and delightful viewing experiences I’ve ever had. Five stars would recommend. Content warnings for bodily fluids, surrealism, and Willem Defoe.
Most definitely! I have no ideas which ones though! I know people have told me about doing NaNo but I don’t really remember or pay attention to which ones started here.
So horror plot twists. Better to keep the information secret from the reader until the protagonist would find out or let them in on it so they can have the morbid fascination of watching the unknowing protagonists stumble ever closer to it?
Both can be good! Horror in prose fiction is often more about dread than being scared. The former strategy is good for scaring people and there’s a ton of great examples of that. The latter is all about dread and has its own delights. Which works depends a lot on the tone and voice of the book. The Twisted Ones by T. Kingfisher is a great example of the former strategy that still relies on a ton of dramatic irony to keep things flowing.
I've been hearing "don't reveal any backstory until act 2!" a lot recently (not necessarily re: my own work, but it's a piece of advice I've come across in conversation or online a weird number of times in quick succession). Thoughts on this? Advantages, disadvantages, when not to follow it?
I think that’s terrible advice! Characters come from places and we like them because of their histories. Their pasts define their possible futures. So to get a reader invested in a character show us pieces of their backstory. Just don’t do it in a boring way!
The advice goes: know the backstory, and have it inform goals and behaviors, etc. throughout Act 1 (enough that the reader goes: oh, clearly there's some wound with the mom; or, this character has some issue with water...) but don't reveal what that actual backstory is until Act 2. Maybe it's an overreaction to some writers' tendencies to info-dump backstory in the first few chapters at the cost of forward momentum? I don't know. Thanks for weighing in, and for hosting this open thread!
Hi DongWon, thanks for holding an open thread! I have a question about plotting that I’ve been struggling with a lot. Often I find that I’ll create characters, thematic elements, and character relationships easily, but have a hard time figuring out the actual moment to moment events in the plot that get them from Point A to Point B. For example I might know that someone needs to go on a test that tests their dedication, but have trouble constructing the actual obstacle that will test that. Do you have advice for working through the difficult middle section of a plot?
Yes, but I’m not sure you’re going to like it! I think you’re thinking about plot backwards. Like you’re trying to get a character from Point A to Point B by establishing those points on a map. Instead, ask yourself: okay, we’re all at Point A. What does my character want now? Where does that want lead them? Does it lead them to Point B? Great. Let’s go there. Does it lead somewhere else? Well, shit. Okay, how do I figure out where they actually do want to go? Or how do I reconfigure this character so they want the thing at B?
Plot derives from character. It derives from their wants, their relationships, and the obstacles in their way. A character is a desire and that desire needs to be addressed, fulfilled, or denied to keep a story moving forward. I suspect, given your description, is that your character just straight up has no interest in going to the place you’re describing so reconsider their relationships and find ways to give them clearer motivations that throw them towards that plot goal.
This is a really helpful perspective check I think! It's all stuff I knew logically but that I've been tossing aside while getting down in the weeds outlining, probably because I consider that the "figuring out the plot" bit even though you're right in that it should all be derived from the characters anyway. Thank you for taking the time to respond!
So I know I'm at the last day but here I am, discovering that my novel is actually maybe a novella.
So my question is, do novellas by debuts do okay? Should I be trying to make this novel shaped? Or try to query with a different project?
Also, thanks for this thread! I haven't participated till now because I didn't feel like I had anything to add, but reading along really helped me to keep going.
I think they can do okay but the general market for novellas is more specific than for novels. I also don't think that the sales track for a novella is held against you in the way that a full novel's would be. What I'm saying is that a novella is a different thing than a novel and a novel debut is a Novel debut. So write the story you want to write and then figure out how to sell that!
Can you expand on this please? If I'm writing a YA-ish thing, but with a male protag and no sighing girls and love triangles do you mean I should edit to lean more heavily into YA tropes?
nah. I mean more broadly than that. Write the book you want to write and then when you're done step back and see where it fits into the market. Your book might not be a YA if it's not hitting YA beats and you can edit it to bump it up into the adult category (or down into middle grade depending on the tone). Or you might realize that it does need a stronger romance here and that would make it work better for the intended audience. I just mean when you're drafting put the market and commercial concerns out of your head. Then, you can focus later on how to connect with the industry.
Ah cool - thanks. I've heard people say you should define your target audience (and segment of the book market) before you start writing, or you may end up with an unmarketable thing that no one knows where to shelve. While that makes sense rationally, it's never jived with my creative process. I guess I'll continue on my merry way and worry about marketing later, when I know what sort of beast I have on my hands :)
Hey DongWon! The month is about to end, and I have another question if you don't mind. What can you tell me about publishing in english even though it's not your native language? I don't want to sound greedy lol but I would like to have a long term career writing, and I feel like publishing in english could potentially make it easier for me to reach wider publics (as in: selling translation rights and whatever), while publishing in my own language might leave me only published in the spanish speaking market (I assume I will not be the next Liliana Bodoc). Thoughts?
There are a number of very strong, healthy foreign language markets around the world. That said, the English language market still seems to be dominant in terms of scale and it is much more common for translations to flow from English to other languages than between other language markets. So, if you’re in a position to write for the English language market then that’s often a great strategy to pursue. Obviously, it’s not necessary. There are any number of hugely successful writers across the globe many of whom have no ability, interest, or need to work in English.
Also, please note that I’m not an expert in foreign markets and as an English speaking American, I undoubtedly have some biases at play here.
Yes, I know! I've been doing research (authors who have done this, and also literary agents and the like that hande translation rights) and plan on doing lots more up until I'm ready to query. The more the merrier they say! Once again, thank you for taking the time to reply!
Do you have any tips for staying sane while your book is on submission? The total lack of information except from the occasional, “no sorry, haven’t heard anything yet” from my agent is making it hard to focus on new projects. I’m still so concerned about what’s going to happen with the project on submission!
Find hobbies! Drink water! Take naps! Go for walks!
Nah, the real answer is start writing the next thing. I don’t recommend a sequel, but get back to work. If you sell, you’ll need something in the pipeline. If you don’t then, hell, you’re half-way to the next project to go on sub with. Keep going.
Hi DongWon, got another one for you. Well, actually two.
First, I'm writing a YA Horror that could also be classified as post-apocalyptic (though I think of it as a horror). Any suggestions on how to label this thing when I query it? I'm just not sure if YA horror is too narrow and maybe I should just call it a horror? It's hard to find good intel on this piece of the market.
Second, and this is a heavier question, my protagonist is physically disabled. Should I make mention of my physical disabilities in my query under the bio portion? Thanks!
I think you should call it YA Horror. I think it’s enough of a category and a growing one.
The second question — the answer, helpfully, is it depends. I think you can tag it as #ownvoices for disability, but I am also skeptical of the ownvoices tag. Basically it comes down to your comfort level. If you want to talk about your disability as part of your bio, then I say go for it. But you should feel no pressure or expectation to. It’s also something you can bring up if you have a call with a potential agent or if they ask about the rep in the book.
This is so great! Thanks for taking the time to do this. I've been working on my wip for a while now, and I've almost finished the first draft (priority task during nanowrimo). I had planned on querying with it after a few rounds of revisions, but now I'm thinking that maybe it wouldn't work as a debut ('m wondering if maybe I was too ambitious with my first novel). Should I shelve it after finishing my draft and work on another piece that could potentially be a better debut novel, potentially a safer choice for an agent, or should I try to query with it anyway? I appreciate it!
Thank you for doing this :) When querying, is there any way to know whether a) your submission materials are good but your work isn't the right fit for that agent, or b) your work / submission materials need improvement?
Not really! Fit is hugely important but it's rare when we have the time to get into where the work or the query needs improvement. It's a huge investment on our part to sit down and unpack where something is falling short and how to address that. That's the work we do with clients, by and large, on their projects. As a result, most form letters or rejections rely on fit as the main barrier to taking on a client or project.
But it's not bullshit! Fit really is the thing that I'm usually bouncing off of. Either category, genre, voice, or just general interest in the topic. Agents receive hundreds and hundreds of queries and have double digit clients over the course of an entire career. That's a tough ratio and it's hard to know what exactly is behind any given "no."
The only answer is to keep going and keep improving your work.
I'm using nano to revise my dark comedy, but I'm starting to get a little concerned about my word count. It's hovering around 57K, which I understand is short for an adult novel. However, the pacing is tight and since it's a comedy I feel like the pacing is extra important. It's also important to me that this manuscript is a fully-functioning story in it's own right, and not just a string of jokes. Do I need to worry about a low word count at this point? Also, would love to hear any thoughts you have on dark comedy in general, because this is a venture outside of my typical genre. I'm so excited about it, but very aware that I'm new here.
Comedy makes a lot more sense at a shorter word count! 57 does seem pretty low, but I think it's workable? I don't work in comedic fiction at all so I don't really know what's standard. But at first blush, doesn't seem weird to me.
Thanks so much for offering this! I'm doing a half-nano of a book that's outside my usual genre but still keeps certain elements of my writing style and humor. I tend to write deeply researched alt-historical novels, and right now I'm working on a contemporary soccer novel that takes my love of research deep into soccer culture instead of a historical era. It has me thinking a lot about writing books to build an author profile over a career. (I listened to your Writing Excuses podcast on this the other day, too, which was excellent!) Anyway, I had a friend lose an agent not too long ago because they couldn't seem to see eye-to-eye on this topic once the author turned in their second manuscript. So I guess I'm wondering, when the thing that ties a writer's projects together is more her quirks of writing style than her genre or age group, do you have any tips on little ways to pull them together? How can an author help an agent build that possibility into their career from the start?
I firmly believe all writers should work towards making sure that they are the brand, not their series, not their genre even. You, the person, the voice behind the book should be the thing that readers come back for over and over. So that even as, for example, Leigh Bardugo leaves the Grishaverse behind, she's able to pull a huge audience with her. But she eased people into it, transitioning first to Six of Crows, effectively an adult novel but in a familiar setting, before fully making the jump.
There are a ton of ways to do this, of course, but key is to have a distinctive voice and, even more importantly, a point of view. Each of VE Schwab's books are very different, but they are all clearly from the same person who is interested in a set of things, who has a clearly defined aesthetic. Don't get trapped by what you've done before, it's not about tropes, or story beats, it's about... a vibe? It's extremely hard to define.
But if you make sure you're putting enough of you in your books, your words, your worldview, your excitement then I think the readers can feel that and will jump from genre to genre with you.
Thank you! I like the word "vibe" for what you're describing. It makes intuitive sense when I think about what I've written and what I'm writing. But it makes me think there are a couple little things that might not seem important to an outside eye that I'm going to make sure I get in here because it will feel more "me." Thanks, again!
What do you think makes an interesting magic system? I've written nine manuscript and generally avoided magic systems as a whole. I loved "Magic for Liars" by Sarah Gailey and saw your name in the acknowledgements - do you have any suggestions on where to start?
hmm, this is a complicated one. I think there are a ton of different types of magic systems and figuring out what you want from yours is the key to success. Brandon Sanderson, for example, is famous for having very rigorous magic systems. Mistborn, for example, hinges on the audience and the characters understanding how the magic system works to reveal parts of the world, parts of the mythology, and even to help characters overcome the challenges in front of them.
Magic for Liars on the other hand is very loose with its magic system. It’s far more concerned with how using magic, and its consequences, impact the characters than it is in proposing a single unified theory of how magic works. Tolkein is great at this, gesturing at a vast hidden depth of knowledge without ever delving into what a Wizard is exactly.
So, ask yourself what you need magic to do in the story. Does it drive the plot? Does it reveal systems about the world (Max Gladstone’s Three Parts Dead)? Does it allow us to better examine characters and their interactions? Once you answer that, that will help you understand how much scaffolding you need to do here.
This question is so much pressure! I love villains so much.
I really love Azula from ATLA. She provides such an empathetic foil to Zuko’s arc. She’s easy to empathize with and love even as we see how the pressure has caused her to crack. We understand the choices she makes and we can see how they’re different from the choices Zuko makes. But the show also is saying something about who people become and the reasons why. She never had Iroh to carefully shepherd her around the world. She never had friends like Aang and Katara (Zuko’s one true love). She built brittle bonds using the tools her father gave her and when she needed to lean on her friends, they abandoned her.
... uh, so, I actually really dislike Azula. To be clear, I think she's an amazing character and a pitch perfect villain, but on a personal level I've never been able to empathise with her. I find her frustrating to watch because she's so brilliant and so capable, but she consistently fails to learn from her mistakes. And I know that's because, like you said, she never had a good role model for growth (the inverse of Zuko's monologue about how Azula was handed everything and he had to fight for it), but I also don't think she needs to have positive growth to grow. She drives so much of the s3 plot because every time she tries to manipulate a character's emotional ties she forces them to prove her wrong - she's her own worst enemy! She should be able to figure that out and it makes me angry when she doesn't. Does it make her a better villain that the gaang survives largely because she fails herself, or does the fact that she had to fall first cheapen their success?
Honestly I like about .02 villains and struggle writing them, hence why I wanted to ask you!
Second Chuck Wendig's Damn Fine Story. Also Steering the Craft by Ursula K. Le Guin. And if want essays on solidarity, hope, doubt, and process, The Writer's Book of Doubt by Aidan Doyle. It contains essays from a lot of really great authors including Aliette de Bodard, R. F. Kuang, Jeannette Ng, Fonda Lee... I could go on and on.
I'm gonna third Damn Fine Story. Even if you're not into craft books, it's just (sigh) a damn fine story lol. Wired For Story by Lisa Cron is a good one if you're wanting something other than Save the Cat type stuff. And John Truby's Anatomy of Story will force you to think about your story in all sorts of ways.
What, in your view, is the best querying strategy? Do I carpet-bomb lots of lit agents (selected for my category/genre, naturally) at once, or go in batches?
Batches for sure! That way you can tweak your pitch between rounds. See what’s working and adapt. Also it’s a lot better on your stress level to send out five pitches at a time rather than fifty or whatever.
I'm using NaNo to finish a novel, not to start one. That said, I assume agents get flooded with queries in December? Does it make sense to wait unit, say, January to start querying?
There are a wave in December, but a) NaNo, in spite of the name, is often short of the total wordcount of a novel and b) even a January sub doesn’t really leave time for edits. I’d take your time and do a couple rounds of structural and polish edits before going on sub.
I've been struggling with the elevator pitch for this novel. I realize a pitch for agents will sound rather different than one for a normal reader. For an agent, I will obviously want to summarize all of the most important points, even including spoilers. For a general reader, I'm thinking more in terms of what the back of the book might say to get them to read my story. What do you think is the most important thing to include in a pitch? Do you have any suggestions for composing both types of pitches?
I’m actually of the belief that the pitches shouldn’t be that different! The core of what’s exciting about the book remains the same whether you’re talking to an agent or a reader. The main difference is is that you’ll want a single sentence that frames your pitch for an agent that references your comp titles at the top of any pitch you send out.
The thing you’re describing is more of a synopsis which should be included if the guidelines ask for it or available on request.
Hi Dong! Thanks so much for your newsletter! I'm new to following you, but so far, am really enjoying your Twitters.
I'd love a pep talk! I am working on an epic fantasy novel that I started during last year's NaNoWriMo. The current logline is: magician samurai at magic school who need to learn to work together in order to defeat an invading empire. I'm 97,000 words into it, which seems ridiculous because I don't even think I've reached the halfway point in terms of plot. I feel like an idiot; my brain keeps saying to me, "No one's going to read anything that long!" and "What on earth are you DOING?" On the other hand, I'm enjoying the process of writing the thing and losing myself in that world (which kind of resembles Edo-era Japan), and I keep trying to encourage myself by saying, "Just finish the first draft and cut it down later!"
_Am_ I an idiot? Should I just keep going the way I want to, or does madness lie that way?
Of course madness lies that way, you’re writing a book! Lean into it and see where you end up. Yes, hitting 1/2 way at 100k is probably a sign that your book is too long. But don’t worry about that for now. Just keep going. Once you have a draft, then look at whether or not you can cut it down or split it into multiple books. Write for yourself, but edit to the market.
Hullo Dongwon! When you start querying, is it smart to send a letter to agents that aren't your dream agent first? A way to test the waters of your pitch. I've heard this advice a few times but it sounds a little disingenuous.
I mean... I guess I can see some logic in it for figuring out how your pitch is working. But why would you pitch someone you don’t want to work with? I know there’s a lot of pressure and it feels like you’re missing an opportunity, but at the end of the day you have to shoot your shot. Do it in good faith with all the preparation you can muster.
I'm not DongWon, and un-agented as yet... but I would start with the agents you love the best! It's not like agents give you feedback on queries. The only way to tell is through rejections or acceptances, but agents don't always reject (or accept) based on the quality of work, but on the fit for them - I know my top agents are the ones that I feel are the best fit for my work, so you can bet they will be #1 on my sending list.
Do you have any recommendations for adult novels that have an ensemble cast? Preferably literary rather than sci-fi/fantasy. My Nano project is an ensemble cast "hangout" book modelled on some of my favorite films, but I'm realizing that of course the way an ensemble is treated in films is different than in a book. The narration I'm writing so far is third person, close on one person's experience within the larger group, but I'm having a hell of a time making the group work through just this limited lens. Maybe I need to widen.
(I'm also realizing that I've maybe never even read a "hangout" book per se?)
hmmm, the best hangout book I can think of is Becky Chambers’s Long Way to a Small Angry Planet. I know you were looking for more literary, but for a SFF book it’s very quiet, and close, and largely pre-occupied with the relationships between these characters on a long trip together.
Otherwise, look at maybe Patrick O’Brian’s Master and Commander books.
Sorry, my literary fiction tastes tend to run to a deep examination of a single character!
What’s your view on prologues, particularly if they’re being used the way Disney movies like Beauty and the Beast or Atlantis use them: to provide a legend or fairy tale for the main narrative to interact with?
eh. I think they’re fine, basically? Like a Disney movie has them in part because they’re dealing with a very broad audience of young viewers who may not be familiar with the original story. If you’re writing for an audience who you can expect to know what’s up, then maybe it’s not necessary. Either way around, you need to make sure you’re not boring your reader. Find ways to make your re-telling engaging, surprising, and say something about the book you’re asking them to read.
First drafts don't have to be perfect, right? As I'm writing, I'm realizing that as I reach certain scenes there should have been more X or Y beforehand and then I feel this urge to go back but I know I could get stuck in the first three chapters forever. It's ok to just, make a note of it and keep going, right? It's like roughing in shapes for a drawing?
They absolutely do not have to be perfect! Your third, fourth, seventh don’t have to be perfect! The goal is to get better with each iteration. To learn new things and find new opportunities to be sharper, and clearer.
But if you need to drop a placeholder to keep going, do so. Character names, research details, even scene descriptions can be really useful to skip if you’re not sure where you’re going. I’ve read client manuscripts that just have [someone gets punched here] or whatever. Don’t be afraid of preserving momentum at the cost of being linear.
Yes, I love Anne Lamott's description! When I wrote first drafts in Word, I put "shitty first draft" in the header to remind myself that it's not going to be anything close to perfect and that's totally okay lol!
I just put some kind of placeholder in there (like an @blahblahblah) and know that I can come back to it and fix it/research it later and not break the flow.
A pep talk would be nice. Doing my 7th Nano after 4 years of querying and 8 finished books feels like an exercise in futility right now
Writing books is hard! But remember none of this is wasted time or wasted work. You’ve written eight books! EIGHT BOOKS! That is fucking WILD. So few people in the world can muster up the focus, dedication, and vision to write a single book. Remember there are a lot of reasons to write and getting published is only one of them. Find ways to treasure the joy in the books you have written and will write and use that to keep you going.
Keep writing. Keep querying. You’re doing the right things to get where you want to go. Just remember that the path itself, as hard as it can be, is also the point.
You got this.
Do you have Twitter (or Instagram, but Twitter is my main hangout)? I'm writing my sixth book and querying for the fourth time in 5.5 years right now. So... I feel you. Find me somewhere @RochelleDeans??
Yes, I'm on twitter. @melody_gordon
How do you know when your shit is good? I think I’ve got some good work, but it usually gets torn apart by editors and beta readers. How do you know the difference between a a compelling story and getting high on your own farts?
I talk a lot about how the keys to surviving this business are all rooted in contradictions. This is one of the biggest ones. You, the writer, need to be humble. You need to doubt your work. You need to know that it can be better. Because that’s what lets you hear criticism, that’s what makes you push for it to be better, work harder, grow with each book.
But, it is also true, that if you don’t believe in yourself first, no one will. No one can tell you your book is good. No external validation will prove to you that you wrote something good enough. I can’t do anything for you if you don’t first know, in your deepest heart, that you deserve this.
Believe in you. Be your best advocate. Stay humble. Do the work. But above all, keep the faith.
Thank you, DongWon. This is exactly what I needed to hear today.
Any advice on how to read for critique quickly? I've swapped NaNo outlines with CPs and would like to return them quickly, but it always takes me hours just to read and critique a small section - 10 pages in an hour is a really good session; sometimes it's half that if I have a bunch to say on a page. That's a lot of hours for a full MS! I'm not even reading for grammar/line edits; it just seems to be the speed my brain goes at when critically processing what it's reading. I'd love any tips to improve my speed or work more efficiently. I figure as an agent you must have a good system in place! :) Thanks for taking questions!
ahahahahahahaah lmk if you figure it out!
editing takes time. it’s slow and hard and like most creative activities there’s not a lot of ways to make it go faster.
Ha! Well, thank you. Glad to know I'm not an oddball. I'll report back if any miracle tricks come my way. 😆
OMG, this is so validating. I once alpha read a 200,000+ word epic fantasy novel for a friend, and it took me 6 months. I even liked it a lot, but it felt like it should be a trilogy.
Any advice on how to approach revisions, after November?
Put the book in a desk drawer for at least a week, preferably two. Don’t think about it. Don’t look at it. Don’t talk about it.
Go for hikes. Watch movies. Play some games. Read something else. Cook some food. See your friends.
Then, come back, sit down and read the whole thing through without taking notes. Then stop and write down your impressions. You’ll find, ideally, that new solutions have presented themselves to problems you never even saw.
Give your brain time to rest and recharge. Give your subconscious time to chew through the problems you’ve presented it. Give it fuel to keep going. Rest, then edit.
This is exactly what I needed to hear, thank you!
How do you know when to give up on revising something?
I finished my first novel draft this summer, and as I've revised and gotten feedback I've realized that I wrote it from a really anxious/self-doubting place. I was trying to be clever and follow the rules more than I was trying to write something that works.
Is it worth it to keep working on it throughout NaNo, as a way to hone my revising skills? Or is it cool to shelve it for now and draft something new, now that I know I can actually write+finish a full work?
Take a break when you're not excited to work on something. Outline a new project. Go for a walk. Take a breather. If you're feeling that frustrated, I'm not an advocate for just pushing through. Sometimes it's what's needed and called for, usually by a deadline, but I think your best work is rooted in your enthusiasm. Yes, writing is hard. Yes, it often seems to make people feel bad.
Okay, running analogy. There's two types of pain in running. One is "oh god everything hurts, my feet are aching, my legs are on fire, I can't breathe." This is good pain. This is normal pain. This is to be borne, to be pushed through, to come out the other side with renewed vigor or the blessed relief of sitting down at the end of a long run. The other is "my knees are full of knives, my leg won't extend properly, my hips are grinding." This is stop pain. This is I'm injured pain. This is rest pain.
Learning the difference between the two is the key to success. You need to sit down and really think is your frustration a lack of excitement about the book, a lack of vision for what you want it to be? Or are you just tired right now and keeping going is hard because you're discouraged or depressed?
Hi! This thread is great, love reading your answers to other people's questions. Thank you for your hard work! I have one great doubt (right now): what's an appropiate scene lenght? Does it depend on the author? the style? the type of event you're describing? the mood you want to convey? According to google results my scenes are too short (usually around 500 to 1000 words, when apparently the norm is 1000-2000). I'm rewritting my first finished manuscript so now it's driving me crazy! Is it intrinsically wrong that they are short or does it really depends on [variety of motives]? Main thing that keeps me up is that I read that "character driven" stories need longer scenes and mine is a character driven story so.... oh no!? Lol! Thank you for your input on the matter!
I don’t think there’s any answer to this that can be standardized! Think about when things get boring. Think about rhythm. Both in the scene and in the MS as a whole. Is your story quick tempo, a driving beat? is it slow and languorous, building tension by layering on detail after detail? does it change up from PoV to PoV, from plot to plot? Trust your instincts is what I’m going to say. Ignore what google says. Ignore what any book says. Do what feels right.
"Do what feels right" sounds like the ideal advice. Perhaps my biggest mistake was googling things in the first place. While writing the first ms I never doubted myself in terms of scene lenght, and as I finished it I had a very clear vision of the pace/rythm I wanted for the Finished Version, and knew how scenes had to look like to accomplish that. Looking up what other people do kinda screwed that confidence. But hopefully only momentarily. I'll try to get back on my "doing what feels right" mood. Thank you!
Thanks so much for doing this! Do you have any recommendations of books written in first person with super strong voice? My NaNo novel is the first 1st person book I've written in awhile, and I'd like to read some great examples. I've read ones like Permanent Record by Mary HK Choi and Eleanor Oliphant is Completely Fine by Gail Honeyman and would love to be able to write with a strong voice like those.
Sorry but gonna plug one of my own: Magic for Liars by Sarah Gailey is extremely voice-y and first person. Lolita is another example that springs to mind at a very different end of the spectrum.
I think first person really sings with a very strong voice. Although, as you can tell from these examples, I'm a total sucker for an unreliable narrator!
Thanks so much!
Thanks for this thread. How do I know if a scene has enough tension, and if that tension is compelling enough to get readers turning pages? What kind of tension keeps even "slow" scenes between major action scenes and plot developments interesting?
Remember that books are about evolution. So ask yourself, is your character the same person at the beginning of the scene versus the end of the scene? Are they developing? Growing? Changing? Learning? If not, how do we, as readers feel about that.
The other thing to think about is always being clear about who “wins” a scene. This video essay from Tony Zhou’s Every Frame a Painting is something I think about all the time while editing. (https://vimeo.com/108963321) While he’s specifically talking about filmic language so much of the principle carries over into books as well.
All scenes are about development and progress whether or not someone is in a fight. Remember that fights are about emotions and interstitial moments are about forward movement.
Best tips for those with short story success transitioning to longer work?
Also, what did you think of the Lighthouse?
I think of short stories vs novels as a layer cake, where each layer is a plot thread. So a short story is a single layer cheesecake, dense, rich, nuanced. A novella is like a tall rainbow birthday cake. You got an A plot, a B plot, and a C plot. A novel is a god damn mille feuille. Layer on layer on layer, each reinforcing each other until it builds to a complex, structural whole.
A novel isn’t just a short story but longer. It’s many many short stories stacked and woven together around a single, central motivating question.
The Lighthouse was incredible and one of the most distinctive and delightful viewing experiences I’ve ever had. Five stars would recommend. Content warnings for bodily fluids, surrealism, and Willem Defoe.
Have any of your clients' work been noted as "written during NaNoWriMo"?
Most definitely! I have no ideas which ones though! I know people have told me about doing NaNo but I don’t really remember or pay attention to which ones started here.
So horror plot twists. Better to keep the information secret from the reader until the protagonist would find out or let them in on it so they can have the morbid fascination of watching the unknowing protagonists stumble ever closer to it?
Also I will always take a pep talk!
Both can be good! Horror in prose fiction is often more about dread than being scared. The former strategy is good for scaring people and there’s a ton of great examples of that. The latter is all about dread and has its own delights. Which works depends a lot on the tone and voice of the book. The Twisted Ones by T. Kingfisher is a great example of the former strategy that still relies on a ton of dramatic irony to keep things flowing.
I've been hearing "don't reveal any backstory until act 2!" a lot recently (not necessarily re: my own work, but it's a piece of advice I've come across in conversation or online a weird number of times in quick succession). Thoughts on this? Advantages, disadvantages, when not to follow it?
I think that’s terrible advice! Characters come from places and we like them because of their histories. Their pasts define their possible futures. So to get a reader invested in a character show us pieces of their backstory. Just don’t do it in a boring way!
The advice goes: know the backstory, and have it inform goals and behaviors, etc. throughout Act 1 (enough that the reader goes: oh, clearly there's some wound with the mom; or, this character has some issue with water...) but don't reveal what that actual backstory is until Act 2. Maybe it's an overreaction to some writers' tendencies to info-dump backstory in the first few chapters at the cost of forward momentum? I don't know. Thanks for weighing in, and for hosting this open thread!
Hi DongWon, thanks for holding an open thread! I have a question about plotting that I’ve been struggling with a lot. Often I find that I’ll create characters, thematic elements, and character relationships easily, but have a hard time figuring out the actual moment to moment events in the plot that get them from Point A to Point B. For example I might know that someone needs to go on a test that tests their dedication, but have trouble constructing the actual obstacle that will test that. Do you have advice for working through the difficult middle section of a plot?
Yes, but I’m not sure you’re going to like it! I think you’re thinking about plot backwards. Like you’re trying to get a character from Point A to Point B by establishing those points on a map. Instead, ask yourself: okay, we’re all at Point A. What does my character want now? Where does that want lead them? Does it lead them to Point B? Great. Let’s go there. Does it lead somewhere else? Well, shit. Okay, how do I figure out where they actually do want to go? Or how do I reconfigure this character so they want the thing at B?
Plot derives from character. It derives from their wants, their relationships, and the obstacles in their way. A character is a desire and that desire needs to be addressed, fulfilled, or denied to keep a story moving forward. I suspect, given your description, is that your character just straight up has no interest in going to the place you’re describing so reconsider their relationships and find ways to give them clearer motivations that throw them towards that plot goal.
This is a really helpful perspective check I think! It's all stuff I knew logically but that I've been tossing aside while getting down in the weeds outlining, probably because I consider that the "figuring out the plot" bit even though you're right in that it should all be derived from the characters anyway. Thank you for taking the time to respond!
So I know I'm at the last day but here I am, discovering that my novel is actually maybe a novella.
So my question is, do novellas by debuts do okay? Should I be trying to make this novel shaped? Or try to query with a different project?
Also, thanks for this thread! I haven't participated till now because I didn't feel like I had anything to add, but reading along really helped me to keep going.
I think they can do okay but the general market for novellas is more specific than for novels. I also don't think that the sales track for a novella is held against you in the way that a full novel's would be. What I'm saying is that a novella is a different thing than a novel and a novel debut is a Novel debut. So write the story you want to write and then figure out how to sell that!
"Write for yourself, but edit to the market."
Can you expand on this please? If I'm writing a YA-ish thing, but with a male protag and no sighing girls and love triangles do you mean I should edit to lean more heavily into YA tropes?
nah. I mean more broadly than that. Write the book you want to write and then when you're done step back and see where it fits into the market. Your book might not be a YA if it's not hitting YA beats and you can edit it to bump it up into the adult category (or down into middle grade depending on the tone). Or you might realize that it does need a stronger romance here and that would make it work better for the intended audience. I just mean when you're drafting put the market and commercial concerns out of your head. Then, you can focus later on how to connect with the industry.
Ah cool - thanks. I've heard people say you should define your target audience (and segment of the book market) before you start writing, or you may end up with an unmarketable thing that no one knows where to shelve. While that makes sense rationally, it's never jived with my creative process. I guess I'll continue on my merry way and worry about marketing later, when I know what sort of beast I have on my hands :)
Hey DongWon! The month is about to end, and I have another question if you don't mind. What can you tell me about publishing in english even though it's not your native language? I don't want to sound greedy lol but I would like to have a long term career writing, and I feel like publishing in english could potentially make it easier for me to reach wider publics (as in: selling translation rights and whatever), while publishing in my own language might leave me only published in the spanish speaking market (I assume I will not be the next Liliana Bodoc). Thoughts?
There are a number of very strong, healthy foreign language markets around the world. That said, the English language market still seems to be dominant in terms of scale and it is much more common for translations to flow from English to other languages than between other language markets. So, if you’re in a position to write for the English language market then that’s often a great strategy to pursue. Obviously, it’s not necessary. There are any number of hugely successful writers across the globe many of whom have no ability, interest, or need to work in English.
Also, please note that I’m not an expert in foreign markets and as an English speaking American, I undoubtedly have some biases at play here.
Yes, I know! I've been doing research (authors who have done this, and also literary agents and the like that hande translation rights) and plan on doing lots more up until I'm ready to query. The more the merrier they say! Once again, thank you for taking the time to reply!
Just clarifying, at Morhaim is the policy that we can only query one agent and a no means no from the whole agency (Unless we write another book)?
correct.
Do you have any tips for staying sane while your book is on submission? The total lack of information except from the occasional, “no sorry, haven’t heard anything yet” from my agent is making it hard to focus on new projects. I’m still so concerned about what’s going to happen with the project on submission!
Find hobbies! Drink water! Take naps! Go for walks!
Nah, the real answer is start writing the next thing. I don’t recommend a sequel, but get back to work. If you sell, you’ll need something in the pipeline. If you don’t then, hell, you’re half-way to the next project to go on sub with. Keep going.
Hi DongWon, got another one for you. Well, actually two.
First, I'm writing a YA Horror that could also be classified as post-apocalyptic (though I think of it as a horror). Any suggestions on how to label this thing when I query it? I'm just not sure if YA horror is too narrow and maybe I should just call it a horror? It's hard to find good intel on this piece of the market.
Second, and this is a heavier question, my protagonist is physically disabled. Should I make mention of my physical disabilities in my query under the bio portion? Thanks!
I think you should call it YA Horror. I think it’s enough of a category and a growing one.
The second question — the answer, helpfully, is it depends. I think you can tag it as #ownvoices for disability, but I am also skeptical of the ownvoices tag. Basically it comes down to your comfort level. If you want to talk about your disability as part of your bio, then I say go for it. But you should feel no pressure or expectation to. It’s also something you can bring up if you have a call with a potential agent or if they ask about the rep in the book.
Thank you, DongWon. This is very helpful.
This is so great! Thanks for taking the time to do this. I've been working on my wip for a while now, and I've almost finished the first draft (priority task during nanowrimo). I had planned on querying with it after a few rounds of revisions, but now I'm thinking that maybe it wouldn't work as a debut ('m wondering if maybe I was too ambitious with my first novel). Should I shelve it after finishing my draft and work on another piece that could potentially be a better debut novel, potentially a safer choice for an agent, or should I try to query with it anyway? I appreciate it!
to be blunt: fuck safe.
Thank you for doing this :) When querying, is there any way to know whether a) your submission materials are good but your work isn't the right fit for that agent, or b) your work / submission materials need improvement?
Not really! Fit is hugely important but it's rare when we have the time to get into where the work or the query needs improvement. It's a huge investment on our part to sit down and unpack where something is falling short and how to address that. That's the work we do with clients, by and large, on their projects. As a result, most form letters or rejections rely on fit as the main barrier to taking on a client or project.
But it's not bullshit! Fit really is the thing that I'm usually bouncing off of. Either category, genre, voice, or just general interest in the topic. Agents receive hundreds and hundreds of queries and have double digit clients over the course of an entire career. That's a tough ratio and it's hard to know what exactly is behind any given "no."
The only answer is to keep going and keep improving your work.
Hi Dongwon!
I'm using nano to revise my dark comedy, but I'm starting to get a little concerned about my word count. It's hovering around 57K, which I understand is short for an adult novel. However, the pacing is tight and since it's a comedy I feel like the pacing is extra important. It's also important to me that this manuscript is a fully-functioning story in it's own right, and not just a string of jokes. Do I need to worry about a low word count at this point? Also, would love to hear any thoughts you have on dark comedy in general, because this is a venture outside of my typical genre. I'm so excited about it, but very aware that I'm new here.
Comedy makes a lot more sense at a shorter word count! 57 does seem pretty low, but I think it's workable? I don't work in comedic fiction at all so I don't really know what's standard. But at first blush, doesn't seem weird to me.
Thanks so much for offering this! I'm doing a half-nano of a book that's outside my usual genre but still keeps certain elements of my writing style and humor. I tend to write deeply researched alt-historical novels, and right now I'm working on a contemporary soccer novel that takes my love of research deep into soccer culture instead of a historical era. It has me thinking a lot about writing books to build an author profile over a career. (I listened to your Writing Excuses podcast on this the other day, too, which was excellent!) Anyway, I had a friend lose an agent not too long ago because they couldn't seem to see eye-to-eye on this topic once the author turned in their second manuscript. So I guess I'm wondering, when the thing that ties a writer's projects together is more her quirks of writing style than her genre or age group, do you have any tips on little ways to pull them together? How can an author help an agent build that possibility into their career from the start?
I firmly believe all writers should work towards making sure that they are the brand, not their series, not their genre even. You, the person, the voice behind the book should be the thing that readers come back for over and over. So that even as, for example, Leigh Bardugo leaves the Grishaverse behind, she's able to pull a huge audience with her. But she eased people into it, transitioning first to Six of Crows, effectively an adult novel but in a familiar setting, before fully making the jump.
There are a ton of ways to do this, of course, but key is to have a distinctive voice and, even more importantly, a point of view. Each of VE Schwab's books are very different, but they are all clearly from the same person who is interested in a set of things, who has a clearly defined aesthetic. Don't get trapped by what you've done before, it's not about tropes, or story beats, it's about... a vibe? It's extremely hard to define.
But if you make sure you're putting enough of you in your books, your words, your worldview, your excitement then I think the readers can feel that and will jump from genre to genre with you.
Thank you! I like the word "vibe" for what you're describing. It makes intuitive sense when I think about what I've written and what I'm writing. But it makes me think there are a couple little things that might not seem important to an outside eye that I'm going to make sure I get in here because it will feel more "me." Thanks, again!
What do you think makes an interesting magic system? I've written nine manuscript and generally avoided magic systems as a whole. I loved "Magic for Liars" by Sarah Gailey and saw your name in the acknowledgements - do you have any suggestions on where to start?
hmm, this is a complicated one. I think there are a ton of different types of magic systems and figuring out what you want from yours is the key to success. Brandon Sanderson, for example, is famous for having very rigorous magic systems. Mistborn, for example, hinges on the audience and the characters understanding how the magic system works to reveal parts of the world, parts of the mythology, and even to help characters overcome the challenges in front of them.
Magic for Liars on the other hand is very loose with its magic system. It’s far more concerned with how using magic, and its consequences, impact the characters than it is in proposing a single unified theory of how magic works. Tolkein is great at this, gesturing at a vast hidden depth of knowledge without ever delving into what a Wizard is exactly.
So, ask yourself what you need magic to do in the story. Does it drive the plot? Does it reveal systems about the world (Max Gladstone’s Three Parts Dead)? Does it allow us to better examine characters and their interactions? Once you answer that, that will help you understand how much scaffolding you need to do here.
Who’s your favorite villain and why do you think they work within the context of the story?
This question is so much pressure! I love villains so much.
I really love Azula from ATLA. She provides such an empathetic foil to Zuko’s arc. She’s easy to empathize with and love even as we see how the pressure has caused her to crack. We understand the choices she makes and we can see how they’re different from the choices Zuko makes. But the show also is saying something about who people become and the reasons why. She never had Iroh to carefully shepherd her around the world. She never had friends like Aang and Katara (Zuko’s one true love). She built brittle bonds using the tools her father gave her and when she needed to lean on her friends, they abandoned her.
... uh, so, I actually really dislike Azula. To be clear, I think she's an amazing character and a pitch perfect villain, but on a personal level I've never been able to empathise with her. I find her frustrating to watch because she's so brilliant and so capable, but she consistently fails to learn from her mistakes. And I know that's because, like you said, she never had a good role model for growth (the inverse of Zuko's monologue about how Azula was handed everything and he had to fight for it), but I also don't think she needs to have positive growth to grow. She drives so much of the s3 plot because every time she tries to manipulate a character's emotional ties she forces them to prove her wrong - she's her own worst enemy! She should be able to figure that out and it makes me angry when she doesn't. Does it make her a better villain that the gaang survives largely because she fails herself, or does the fact that she had to fall first cheapen their success?
Honestly I like about .02 villains and struggle writing them, hence why I wanted to ask you!
Do you have any favorite books on craft that you recommend for aspiring novelists?
Sadly I don’t really read craft books! I know everyone likes Stephen King’s On Writing. I also hear Chuck Wendig’s Damn Fine Story is great.
I've super enjoyed, and often recommend to others, THE EMOTIONAL CRAFT OF FICTION!
Second Chuck Wendig's Damn Fine Story. Also Steering the Craft by Ursula K. Le Guin. And if want essays on solidarity, hope, doubt, and process, The Writer's Book of Doubt by Aidan Doyle. It contains essays from a lot of really great authors including Aliette de Bodard, R. F. Kuang, Jeannette Ng, Fonda Lee... I could go on and on.
I'm gonna third Damn Fine Story. Even if you're not into craft books, it's just (sigh) a damn fine story lol. Wired For Story by Lisa Cron is a good one if you're wanting something other than Save the Cat type stuff. And John Truby's Anatomy of Story will force you to think about your story in all sorts of ways.
(I loved _Thrill Me: Essays on Fiction_ by Benjamin Percy!)
Bird by Bird by Anne Lamott. Craft but also encouragement. So good. I take it out at least once a year.
Self-Editing for Fiction Writers is pure gold, but don't read it while writing a first draft!
What, in your view, is the best querying strategy? Do I carpet-bomb lots of lit agents (selected for my category/genre, naturally) at once, or go in batches?
Batches for sure! That way you can tweak your pitch between rounds. See what’s working and adapt. Also it’s a lot better on your stress level to send out five pitches at a time rather than fifty or whatever.
I'm using NaNo to finish a novel, not to start one. That said, I assume agents get flooded with queries in December? Does it make sense to wait unit, say, January to start querying?
There are a wave in December, but a) NaNo, in spite of the name, is often short of the total wordcount of a novel and b) even a January sub doesn’t really leave time for edits. I’d take your time and do a couple rounds of structural and polish edits before going on sub.
Thank you so much for opening a questions thread!
I've been struggling with the elevator pitch for this novel. I realize a pitch for agents will sound rather different than one for a normal reader. For an agent, I will obviously want to summarize all of the most important points, even including spoilers. For a general reader, I'm thinking more in terms of what the back of the book might say to get them to read my story. What do you think is the most important thing to include in a pitch? Do you have any suggestions for composing both types of pitches?
I’m actually of the belief that the pitches shouldn’t be that different! The core of what’s exciting about the book remains the same whether you’re talking to an agent or a reader. The main difference is is that you’ll want a single sentence that frames your pitch for an agent that references your comp titles at the top of any pitch you send out.
The thing you’re describing is more of a synopsis which should be included if the guidelines ask for it or available on request.
Well, at least I already have a sense of comp titles. But whoof--one sentence is not a lot of space!
Thank you for the response! Maybe thinking about it like that will help me on both fronts!
Hi Dong! Thanks so much for your newsletter! I'm new to following you, but so far, am really enjoying your Twitters.
I'd love a pep talk! I am working on an epic fantasy novel that I started during last year's NaNoWriMo. The current logline is: magician samurai at magic school who need to learn to work together in order to defeat an invading empire. I'm 97,000 words into it, which seems ridiculous because I don't even think I've reached the halfway point in terms of plot. I feel like an idiot; my brain keeps saying to me, "No one's going to read anything that long!" and "What on earth are you DOING?" On the other hand, I'm enjoying the process of writing the thing and losing myself in that world (which kind of resembles Edo-era Japan), and I keep trying to encourage myself by saying, "Just finish the first draft and cut it down later!"
_Am_ I an idiot? Should I just keep going the way I want to, or does madness lie that way?
Of course madness lies that way, you’re writing a book! Lean into it and see where you end up. Yes, hitting 1/2 way at 100k is probably a sign that your book is too long. But don’t worry about that for now. Just keep going. Once you have a draft, then look at whether or not you can cut it down or split it into multiple books. Write for yourself, but edit to the market.
Thank you!
Hullo Dongwon! When you start querying, is it smart to send a letter to agents that aren't your dream agent first? A way to test the waters of your pitch. I've heard this advice a few times but it sounds a little disingenuous.
I mean... I guess I can see some logic in it for figuring out how your pitch is working. But why would you pitch someone you don’t want to work with? I know there’s a lot of pressure and it feels like you’re missing an opportunity, but at the end of the day you have to shoot your shot. Do it in good faith with all the preparation you can muster.
I'm not DongWon, and un-agented as yet... but I would start with the agents you love the best! It's not like agents give you feedback on queries. The only way to tell is through rejections or acceptances, but agents don't always reject (or accept) based on the quality of work, but on the fit for them - I know my top agents are the ones that I feel are the best fit for my work, so you can bet they will be #1 on my sending list.
Do you have any recommendations for adult novels that have an ensemble cast? Preferably literary rather than sci-fi/fantasy. My Nano project is an ensemble cast "hangout" book modelled on some of my favorite films, but I'm realizing that of course the way an ensemble is treated in films is different than in a book. The narration I'm writing so far is third person, close on one person's experience within the larger group, but I'm having a hell of a time making the group work through just this limited lens. Maybe I need to widen.
(I'm also realizing that I've maybe never even read a "hangout" book per se?)
Thank you for doing this thread. <3
hmmm, the best hangout book I can think of is Becky Chambers’s Long Way to a Small Angry Planet. I know you were looking for more literary, but for a SFF book it’s very quiet, and close, and largely pre-occupied with the relationships between these characters on a long trip together.
Otherwise, look at maybe Patrick O’Brian’s Master and Commander books.
Sorry, my literary fiction tastes tend to run to a deep examination of a single character!
I will check them out. Thank you so much!
I really liked "The Secret History" by Donna Tartt.
This looks like just the ticket. Thank you for your response!
What’s your view on prologues, particularly if they’re being used the way Disney movies like Beauty and the Beast or Atlantis use them: to provide a legend or fairy tale for the main narrative to interact with?
eh. I think they’re fine, basically? Like a Disney movie has them in part because they’re dealing with a very broad audience of young viewers who may not be familiar with the original story. If you’re writing for an audience who you can expect to know what’s up, then maybe it’s not necessary. Either way around, you need to make sure you’re not boring your reader. Find ways to make your re-telling engaging, surprising, and say something about the book you’re asking them to read.
First drafts don't have to be perfect, right? As I'm writing, I'm realizing that as I reach certain scenes there should have been more X or Y beforehand and then I feel this urge to go back but I know I could get stuck in the first three chapters forever. It's ok to just, make a note of it and keep going, right? It's like roughing in shapes for a drawing?
They absolutely do not have to be perfect! Your third, fourth, seventh don’t have to be perfect! The goal is to get better with each iteration. To learn new things and find new opportunities to be sharper, and clearer.
But if you need to drop a placeholder to keep going, do so. Character names, research details, even scene descriptions can be really useful to skip if you’re not sure where you’re going. I’ve read client manuscripts that just have [someone gets punched here] or whatever. Don’t be afraid of preserving momentum at the cost of being linear.
Yes, I love Anne Lamott's description! When I wrote first drafts in Word, I put "shitty first draft" in the header to remind myself that it's not going to be anything close to perfect and that's totally okay lol!
I've always loved Anne Lamott's description of a "shitty first draft." https://writingcooperative.com/first-drafts-will-suck-and-why-you-should-let-them-f6ccf6ff8879
I just put some kind of placeholder in there (like an @blahblahblah) and know that I can come back to it and fix it/research it later and not break the flow.